October 23, 2026
View or download a transcript of this episode
“Meditation is like a gym workout. It’s not always a massage.” — David Creswell
In this season opener, producer Phil Walker introduces the Mind & Life Podcast’s new host, health psychologist and contemplative scientist David Creswell. They talk about how David’s research has evolved since his 2023 guest appearance on the podcast, why the hardest moments in meditation may be where the real training happens, and what listeners can expect this season. Then David turns the tables and asks Phil what producing the previous 84 episodes of the podcast has taught him.
In this episode:
- thanking former host Wendy Hasenkamp for 84 episodes over five-plus years
- an experimental health psychologist working at the boundaries of disciplines
- mindfulness training for irritable bowel syndrome and the gut microbiome
- the meditation app revolution, and why so few people keep practicing
- learning from an app vs. a teacher and a group
- meditation as “a gym workout, not a massage”
- equanimity reps and leaning into discomfort
- scientists, industry, and new conflicts of interest
- what 84 episodes taught Phil, and his favorite conversation
- the Dalai Lama as listener: the podcast as dialogue
- a preview of this season, and a glimpse of 2027
David Creswell, PhD, is the William S. Dietrich II Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience at Carnegie Mellon University, where he directs the Health and Human Performance Lab. His research examines what helps people cope under stress, with a focus on how mindfulness and equanimity training affect the brain, stress physiology, and health, from laboratory studies to large digital trials. He is co-founder and Chief of Science of Equa Health and became host of the Mind & Life Podcast in 2026.
Phil Walker is co-producer of the Mind & Life Podcast and has worked on every episode since the show began. He is a documentary filmmaker and creative content producer.
Resources
Studies and materials mentioned in the episode, plus further reading for anyone who wants to go to the original sources.
Earlier Mind & Life Podcast episodes
- David Creswell – Exploring Equanimity (2023), David’s earlier conversation with Wendy Hasenkamp
- Wendy Hasenkamp – Widening the Aperture (2026), Wendy’s farewell conversation with Phil Walker
- john a. powell – Othering and Belonging (2020), Phil’s favorite episode
Research discussed in this episode
- Creswell, J. D., & Goldberg, S. B. (2025). The meditation app revolution. American Psychologist. The source for the app download and retention figures. Plain-language summary: Meditation apps deliver real health benefits, research finds (CMU News, 2025).
- Baumel, A., Muench, F., Edan, S., & Kane, J. M. (2019). Objective user engagement with mental health apps: Systematic search and panel-based usage analysis. Journal of Medical Internet Research, 21(9), e14567. How few people keep using mental health apps after the first month.
- Smartphone Training for Attention Regulation for IBS (STAR), ClinicalTrials.gov NCT05083091. The mindfulness trial for irritable bowel syndrome David describes.
- Kabat-Zinn, J., et al. (1998). Influence of a mindfulness meditation-based stress reduction intervention on rates of skin clearing in patients with moderate to severe psoriasis undergoing phototherapy (UVB) and photochemotherapy (PUVA). Psychosomatic Medicine, 60(5), 625–632.
- Westbrook, C., Creswell, J. D., et al. (2013). Mindful attention reduces neural and self-reported cue-induced craving in smokers. Social Cognitive and Affective Neuroscience, 8(1), 73–84. The Varela Grant–funded study discussed in the episode.
- Kuyken, W., et al. (2022). Effectiveness and cost-effectiveness of universal school-based mindfulness training compared with normal school provision in reducing risk of mental health problems and promoting well-being in adolescence: The MYRIAD cluster randomised controlled trial. Evidence-Based Mental Health.
The science of equanimity (background reading)
- Lindsay, E. K., & Creswell, J. D. (2017). Mechanisms of mindfulness training: Monitor and Acceptance Theory (MAT). Clinical Psychology Review, 51, 48–59.
- Lindsay, E. K., Young, S., Smyth, J. M., Brown, K. W., & Creswell, J. D. (2018). Acceptance lowers stress reactivity: Dismantling mindfulness training in a randomized controlled trial. Psychoneuroendocrinology, 87, 63–73.
- Chin, B., et al. (2019). Psychological mechanisms driving stress resilience in mindfulness training: A randomized controlled trial. Health Psychology, 38(8), 759–768.
- Creswell, J. D. (2017). Mindfulness interventions. Annual Review of Psychology, 68, 491–516.
Popular writing by David
- Learning to accept discomfort could help you thrive (Scientific American)
- Benefits of mindfulness meditation go far beyond relaxation: Here’s what it is and how to practice it (The Conversation)
- What meditation retreats really do to your mind and body (Psychology Today, Adapt and Thrive column)
- Exercise helps your brain as much as your body (Scientific American)
More about David
- Faculty page, Carnegie Mellon University
- Health and Human Performance Lab, current projects and publications
- Equa Health, the science-first mindfulness app David co-founded. David has a financial conflict of interest with Equa Health.
Contact
- Write to us at podcast@mindandlife.org.
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Disclaimer: The views expressed by the host and guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the positions of the Mind & Life Institute. Discussion of commercial products, services, or organizations does not constitute an endorsement by Mind & Life. Discussion of Equa Health in this episode does not constitute an endorsement by the Mind & Life Institute.
Disclosure: David Creswell is co-founder and Chief of Science of Equa Health, a meditation app company, and has a financial interest in it. He discusses this role in the episode.
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